Discussion:
Kernel 6.13 & choice Init or SystemD for the user on Debian 13
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phil995511 -
2024-11-21 16:30:01 UTC
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Hello,

For the next release of Debian 13, I hope you will use the 6.13 kernel
which brings many essential revisions especially in terms of hardware
support (Rpi5, news AMD GPU, news Intel CPU, BTRFS performance and
fonctions, etc, etc).

And above all, it would also be wonderful if you gave users the choice to
use InitD or SystemD, as we have the choice to use a Cinnamon or other
desktop instead of Gnome. This would certainly satisfy many users and would
also allow to bring together the developers and maintainers of Debian and
Devuan on the same project, which would be very positive for everyone in
terms of human resources and workload...

Thank you for the time you dedicate to the Debian and derivatives community
!!!

Best regards to you and your family and happy end of year holidays a little
early :)

Philippe
Leandro Cunha
2024-11-21 20:50:02 UTC
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Post by phil995511 -
Hello,
For the next release of Debian 13, I hope you will use the 6.13 kernel which brings many essential revisions especially in terms of hardware support (Rpi5, news AMD GPU, news Intel CPU, BTRFS performance and fonctions, etc, etc).
And above all, it would also be wonderful if you gave users the choice to use InitD or SystemD, as we have the choice to use a Cinnamon or other desktop instead of Gnome. This would certainly satisfy many users and would also allow to bring together the developers and maintainers of Debian and Devuan on the same project, which would be very positive for everyone in terms of human resources and workload...
Thank you for the time you dedicate to the Debian and derivatives community !!!
Best regards to you and your family and happy end of year holidays a little early :)
Philippe
The release of stable versions is always done with the latest LTS
released in November/December of the previous year, as has been the
case with all versions so far, then 6.12 LTS and not 6.13 I believe as
Short Term Support (backports is possible after release date).
The option to offer another option besides systemd, any decision on
this would go through the technical committee and would have to have
very good arguments. But I believe that this would not even pass.
--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
phil995511 -
2024-11-22 01:50:01 UTC
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Permalink
Hello,

I discussed all this a few days ago by email with your leader Andreas Tille
who advised me to post this here.

My goal is therefore to let you think about the question and then discuss
it among yourselves...


Only kernel 6.13 will support the new GPUs that will be released in early
2025, the new Intel CPUs, the same for a whole bunch of new hardware...

To be satisfied with kernel 6.12 would in my opinion be a big strategic
mistake jeopardizing compatibility with hardware new or old Debian users.

Besides, kernel 6.12 is not yet officialized as LTS and if Debian slightly
pushes back the release date of version 13 to adopt kernel 6.13, kernel.org
will elect kernel 6.13 as LTS and not 6.12 !!

As for the availability via backport of more recent kernels, this option is
reserved for advanced users, so it is far from accessible to everyone !!!

And backport takes several months after the release of a new edition of
Debian to make new kernels available. On the other hand, the kernels
offered in backport are not always very recent either, sometimes they are
not even supported anymore on the security side...


Regarding the choice of Init or SytemD, I believe it is up to the end user
to choose whether he wants to keep the basic philosophy of Unix by choosing
to use Init or if he prefers to use SystemD which is a product developed by
a company owned by Read Hat, a giant in the commercial computer industry.

Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have
argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred
to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

Kind regards.

Philippe
Post by phil995511 -
Post by phil995511 -
Hello,
For the next release of Debian 13, I hope you will use the 6.13 kernel
which brings many essential revisions especially in terms of hardware
support (Rpi5, news AMD GPU, news Intel CPU, BTRFS performance and
fonctions, etc, etc).
Post by phil995511 -
And above all, it would also be wonderful if you gave users the choice
to use InitD or SystemD, as we have the choice to use a Cinnamon or other
desktop instead of Gnome. This would certainly satisfy many users and would
also allow to bring together the developers and maintainers of Debian and
Devuan on the same project, which would be very positive for everyone in
terms of human resources and workload...
Post by phil995511 -
Thank you for the time you dedicate to the Debian and derivatives
community !!!
Post by phil995511 -
Best regards to you and your family and happy end of year holidays a
little early :)
Post by phil995511 -
Philippe
The release of stable versions is always done with the latest LTS
released in November/December of the previous year, as has been the
case with all versions so far, then 6.12 LTS and not 6.13 I believe as
Short Term Support (backports is possible after release date).
The option to offer another option besides systemd, any decision on
this would go through the technical committee and would have to have
very good arguments. But I believe that this would not even pass.
--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
Leandro Cunha
2024-11-22 07:00:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil995511 -
Hello,
I discussed all this a few days ago by email with your leader Andreas
Tille who advised me to post this here.
My goal is therefore to let you think about the question and then discuss
it among yourselves...
Only kernel 6.13 will support the new GPUs that will be released in early
2025, the new Intel CPUs, the same for a whole bunch of new hardware...
To be satisfied with kernel 6.12 would in my opinion be a big strategic
mistake jeopardizing compatibility with hardware new or old Debian users.
Besides, kernel 6.12 is not yet officialized as LTS and if Debian slightly
pushes back the release date of version 13 to adopt kernel 6.13,
kernel.org will elect kernel 6.13 as LTS and not 6.12 !!
As for the availability via backport of more recent kernels, this option
is reserved for advanced users, so it is far from accessible to everyone !!!
And backport takes several months after the release of a new edition of
Debian to make new kernels available. On the other hand, the kernels
offered in backport are not always very recent either, sometimes they are
not even supported anymore on the security side...
Regarding the choice of Init or SytemD, I believe it is up to the end user
to choose whether he wants to keep the basic philosophy of Unix by choosing
to use Init or if he prefers to use SystemD which is a product developed by
a company owned by Read Hat, a giant in the commercial computer industry.
Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have
argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred
to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.
Kind regards.
Philippe
Post by phil995511 -
Post by phil995511 -
Hello,
For the next release of Debian 13, I hope you will use the 6.13 kernel
which brings many essential revisions especially in terms of hardware
support (Rpi5, news AMD GPU, news Intel CPU, BTRFS performance and
fonctions, etc, etc).
Post by phil995511 -
And above all, it would also be wonderful if you gave users the choice
to use InitD or SystemD, as we have the choice to use a Cinnamon or other
desktop instead of Gnome. This would certainly satisfy many users and would
also allow to bring together the developers and maintainers of Debian and
Devuan on the same project, which would be very positive for everyone in
terms of human resources and workload...
Post by phil995511 -
Thank you for the time you dedicate to the Debian and derivatives
community !!!
Post by phil995511 -
Best regards to you and your family and happy end of year holidays a
little early :)
Post by phil995511 -
Philippe
The release of stable versions is always done with the latest LTS
released in November/December of the previous year, as has been the
case with all versions so far, then 6.12 LTS and not 6.13 I believe as
Short Term Support (backports is possible after release date).
The option to offer another option besides systemd, any decision on
this would go through the technical committee and would have to have
very good arguments. But I believe that this would not even pass.
--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
I remember that this caused controversial discussions in the community and
I was already a Debian user at the time. I followed Debian from afar and
used Debian 8 a lot, which was a big milestone in this regard with systemd.
I would have thought it would be interesting if Debian let you choose
whether to use systemd or not, but they opted for a standard that all other
popular distros (Arch, Fedora, RHEL and others) followed as if it were an
"industry standard" that displeased a legion of people. I was looking at
the news about Linux 6.12, also looking at Linux Newbies to see what was
new and everywhere it was listed as LTS. I believe the release team should
opt for this too. I disagree with saying that backports would be for
advanced users. Besides, we would have some demands like in GNOME about
Triple Buffer by default which is marked as one of the new features for 48
also that would be released in March and Debian adds patches to offer this
feature since bullseye. However, there would be some issues with the Kernel
and GNOME to analyze a little whether it is worth postponing the launch a
little to the second half of 2025 so that we can have these new features in
Trixie.

Leandro
Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
2024-11-22 07:20:01 UTC
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Permalink
Hi,

Quoting phil995511 - (2024-11-22 02:29:31)
Post by phil995511 -
Only kernel 6.13 will support the new GPUs that will be released in early
2025, the new Intel CPUs, the same for a whole bunch of new hardware...
To be satisfied with kernel 6.12 would in my opinion be a big strategic
mistake jeopardizing compatibility with hardware new or old Debian users.
every new kernel release brings new features. Different users find different
features differently important to them. You could make the same argument for
kernel 6.14 or 6.15 which will also bring new features and then you'd be
waiting for *the one* release forever.
Post by phil995511 -
Besides, kernel 6.12 is not yet officialized as LTS and if Debian slightly
pushes back the release date of version 13 to adopt kernel 6.13, kernel.org
will elect kernel 6.13 as LTS and not 6.12 !!
Source please.
Post by phil995511 -
And backport takes several months after the release of a new edition of
Debian to make new kernels available. On the other hand, the kernels offered
in backport are not always very recent either, sometimes they are not even
supported anymore on the security side...
This is just not true. Uploads to backports usually happen within *days* not
months after the versioned transitioned to testing. Please refrain from making
false claims to support your argument. If you do not even want to wait the few
days it takes, join the kernel team and help them do the necessary work.
Post by phil995511 -
Regarding the choice of Init or SytemD, I believe it is up to the end user to
choose whether he wants to keep the basic philosophy of Unix by choosing to
use Init or if he prefers to use SystemD which is a product developed by a
company owned by Read Hat, a giant in the commercial computer industry.
Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have
argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred
to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.
This is a project run by volunteers. If you want to change something, come and
join us and do the work that you think is right but please bear in mind that
your work is a part of a greater whole and we are doing this work together and
not against each other. If you dislike the greater whole, then this is exactly
what derivatives are for. I maintain a Debian derivative myself because it
makes doing things easier which would not fit into Debian. I don't think
anybody on this list would have a bad feeling if you decide for yourself that
Devuan fits your needs better than Debian.

Thanks!

cheers, josch
Leandro Cunha
2024-11-22 07:50:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 3:58 AM Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Post by Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Hi,
Quoting phil995511 - (2024-11-22 02:29:31)
Post by phil995511 -
Only kernel 6.13 will support the new GPUs that will be released in early
2025, the new Intel CPUs, the same for a whole bunch of new hardware...
To be satisfied with kernel 6.12 would in my opinion be a big strategic
mistake jeopardizing compatibility with hardware new or old Debian users.
every new kernel release brings new features. Different users find different
features differently important to them. You could make the same argument for
kernel 6.14 or 6.15 which will also bring new features and then you'd be
waiting for *the one* release forever.
That is true.
Post by Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Post by phil995511 -
Besides, kernel 6.12 is not yet officialized as LTS and if Debian slightly
pushes back the release date of version 13 to adopt kernel 6.13, kernel.org
will elect kernel 6.13 as LTS and not 6.12 !!
Source please.
I would also like sources.
Post by Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Post by phil995511 -
And backport takes several months after the release of a new edition of
Debian to make new kernels available. On the other hand, the kernels offered
in backport are not always very recent either, sometimes they are not even
supported anymore on the security side...
This is just not true. Uploads to backports usually happen within *days* not
months after the versioned transitioned to testing. Please refrain from making
false claims to support your argument. If you do not even want to wait the few
days it takes, join the kernel team and help them do the necessary work.
It would be normal for backports to move at a slower pace as it
depends on the transition to testing and there is one in progress
right now for Linux.
Even if that were true, it would be normal too.
Post by Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
Post by phil995511 -
Regarding the choice of Init or SytemD, I believe it is up to the end user to
choose whether he wants to keep the basic philosophy of Unix by choosing to
use Init or if he prefers to use SystemD which is a product developed by a
company owned by Read Hat, a giant in the commercial computer industry.
Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have
argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred
to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.
This is a project run by volunteers. If you want to change something, come and
join us and do the work that you think is right but please bear in mind that
your work is a part of a greater whole and we are doing this work together and
not against each other. If you dislike the greater whole, then this is exactly
what derivatives are for. I maintain a Debian derivative myself because it
makes doing things easier which would not fit into Debian. I don't think
anybody on this list would have a bad feeling if you decide for yourself that
Devuan fits your needs better than Debian.
I also think that the person would not even be forced to use Debian
and he could opt for Devuan as a distribution that does not have
systemd due to complaints. Or try to use Debian as a custom
installation by removing systemd, putting another one in its place and
that would also be possible.

See https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd
--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
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