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Why are cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment still in version 6.2?
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kindusmith
2025-02-05 11:30:01 UTC
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In Debian 13, all components of cinnamon have been upgraded to 6.4 or
above, but cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment are still
lower versions of 6.2
Fabio Fantoni
2025-02-05 11:50:01 UTC
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Post by kindusmith
In Debian 13, all components of cinnamon have been upgraded to 6.4 or
above, but cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment are still
lower versions of 6.2
Hi, I haven't made the new version of those metapackages yet because at
the moment it would only be a version bump of the cinnamon components, I
should first do some tests of clean installations to check if it is
necessary to modify other parts.

For now I know that I should remove vino from the recommended ones but I
don't know exactly which remote access system would be best to replace
it with.

gnome-remote-desktop would be good, but unfortunately it has parts tied
to gnome, x2goserver which is now an alternative to vino seems to me to
be poorly supported (from a quick look, I could be wrong) and if I
remember correctly it is active by default at installation so it might
not be a great choice, regarding xrdp and others I had tried something
many years ago, but I am not up to date.

Does anyone have any advice on this?
Fabio Fantoni
2025-02-05 13:00:02 UTC
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Post by Fabio Fantoni
Post by kindusmith
In Debian 13, all components of cinnamon have been upgraded to 6.4
or above, but cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment are
still lower versions of 6.2
Hi, I haven't made the new version of those metapackages yet because
at the moment it would only be a version bump of the cinnamon
components, I should first do some tests of clean installations to
check if it is necessary to modify other parts.
For now I know that I should remove vino from the recommended ones
but I don't know exactly which remote access system would be best to
replace it with.
gnome-remote-desktop would be good, but unfortunately it has parts
tied to gnome, x2goserver which is now an alternative to vino seems
to me to be poorly supported (from a quick look, I could be wrong)
and if I remember correctly it is active by default at installation
so it might not be a great choice, regarding xrdp and others I had
tried something many years ago, but I am not up to date.
Does anyone have any advice on this?
On the Cinnamon desktop, x11vnc is more recommended because it is Xorg
sudo apt install x11vnc
You can then connect to your Debian 13 machine using a VNC client
(such as Remmina).
 Conclusion
Vino is a VNC server for GNOME but is not available by default on
Cinnamon.
On Debian 13 + Cinnamon, x11vnc is recommended instead of Vino.
If you still want to use Vino, you can install it manually, but
Cinnamon may not be able to call it directly.
Do you want remote access to your Debian 13 + Cinnamon desktop? If so,
I can help you configure a more appropriate method!
Thanks for reply, I would prefer some answers from human experts rather
than one from an automated system limited by its own algorithm, acquired
data and other factors.

As I wrote in
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1094885#17 for the
In fact, on the remote access part things are not well done, I had
searched a time ago, but I had not found optimal solutions,
well-supported, simple (also for inexperienced users) and that support
both xorg and wayland, there would be gnome-remote-desktop, but
unfortunately it is tied to mutter and some parts specific to gnome.
I haven't had time to do any in-depth research and testing recently (and
I don't know if I'll have enough), so any advice would be appreciated.

Since wayland support of cinnamon is experimental and incomplete, I
could also replace it with a specific software for xorg for now (and for
Debian 13). But it would be useful to find something also supported by
wayland as part of the wayland support that is slowly progressing also
in cinnamon.

As Jeremy Bícha also wrote "VNC protocol it is not very secure by
default" in #1094885and so I tried to keep it as a "secondary choice"
but if there were no good enough alternatives I could still evaluate
vnc, for example with x11vnc (although just seeing that the last
upstream version dates back to 6 years ago leaves me a bit doubtful, I
haven't looked into more detail though, I'll see deep if someone don't
recommend better choices).
Andrew M.A. Cater
2025-02-08 14:20:01 UTC
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Post by kindusmith
In Debian 13, all components of cinnamon have been upgraded to 6.4 or
above, but cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment are still
lower versions of 6.2
Hi, I haven't made the new version of those metapackages yet because at the
moment it would only be a version bump of the cinnamon components, I should
first do some tests of clean installations to check if it is necessary to
modify other parts.
Cinnamon comes originally from Linux Mate and Clement Lefebrvre -
maybe follow what they package as their desktop as a basis for the
full desktop metapackage if you haven't before??
For now I know that I should remove vino from the recommended ones but I
don't know exactly which remote access system would be best to replace it
with.
gnome-remote-desktop would be good, but unfortunately it has parts tied to
gnome, x2goserver which is now an alternative to vino seems to me to be
poorly supported (from a quick look, I could be wrong) and if I remember
correctly it is active by default at installation so it might not be a great
choice, regarding xrdp and others I had tried something many years ago, but
I am not up to date.
Ideally, yes, don't pull in masses of GNOME. It does seem that a lot of
people rely on Cinnamon at least partly because it's lighter weight and
needs fewer resources. if you can make cinnamon more self contained, that
might be a lot better. [Several of the Debian desktop metapackages need
cleaning up IMHO - don't feel bad that this is being asked of you.]
Does anyone have any advice on this?
I'd suggest RDP in some form: Microsoft seem to be going this way
for suggested interaction with WSL and Red Hat have dropped VNC
because it doesn't work well with Wayland.

If people really want VNC, then TigerVNC is there in Debian for
all architectures.

Hope this helps,

All the very best, as ever,

Andrew Cater
(***@debian.org)
Simon McVittie
2025-02-08 16:10:01 UTC
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Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
Post by Fabio Fantoni
For now I know that I should remove vino from the recommended ones but I
don't know exactly which remote access system would be best to replace it
with.
Since nobody seems to have asked this question yet:

Is accepting remote access from other machines considered to be a core
part of the functionality of Cinnamon? If not, then maybe it doesn't
need a remote desktop server to be part of a default installation,
especially if there is no particularly suitable candidate?

GNOME pulls in gnome-remote-desktop *because* it's relatively tightly
integrated with the rest of GNOME - gnome-remote-desktop relies on
implementation-specific interfaces built into libmutter and gnome-shell
for its benefit; gnome-control-center has built-in UI for enabling and
disabling remote access via gnome-remote-desktop (and/or ssh), so that
it can be off-by-default but easy to enable if/when desired; and GNOME
upstream considers gnome-remote-desktop to be part of their overall
"product".

But if similar statements aren't true for Cinnamon, then perhaps it
doesn't need feature parity on this particular point? For example looking
at MATE and Xfce, I don't see an obvious remote-desktop service.
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
If people really want VNC, then TigerVNC is there in Debian for
all architectures.
Note that there are two flavours of remote access with rather different
requirements and expectations, orthogonal to the specific protocol
that's used.

The traditional Unix approach to VNC was for the remote user's login
to be into an entirely new, independent desktop session, like a GUI
equivalent of logging in with ssh. Outside the Unix world, I believe
this approach is basically equivalent to Windows Terminal Services.
A local user can't see or interact with GUI applications started by the
remote user, and vice versa, even if they are both logged in as the same
uid. Xvnc, tightvncserver and tigervnc-standalone-server are examples of
this approach if I understand correctly.

gnome-remote-desktop, krfb, wayvnc and the now-unmaintained vino are more
like the way remote access has traditionally been done on Windows and macOS
desktop systems, where the remote user's login is remote-controlling
an existing desktop session. This is less like a GUI equivalent of ssh,
and more like a GUI equivalent of conspy or vtgrab, with applications
started by either the local or remote user being visible and interactable
for the other. tigervnc-scraping-server and tigervnc-xorg-extension seem
to be implementations of this approach.

Neither of those two approaches is a drop-in replacement for the other.
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
I'd suggest RDP in some form: Microsoft seem to be going this way
for suggested interaction with WSL and Red Hat have dropped VNC
because it doesn't work well with Wayland.
Are you sure that's why Red Hat have de-emphasized VNC? VNC and RFB
are both general-purpose protocols for remote keyboard/video/mouse,
and in principle it shouldn't matter where you got the pixels from or
where you're sending keyboard and mouse events to.

The important difference between X11 and Wayland for remote access
is that in X11, individual X11 clients are powerful enough to act as a
remote access server, and the X11 server is largely powerless to prevent
them from doing so (vino was an X11 client like any other, which is why
it worked in Cinnamon despite having been designed for GNOME).

With Wayland, ordinary applications do not have complete control over
the compositor via the Wayland protocol, and remote-access servers
like gnome-remote-desktop, krfb and wayvnc need to use a more-powerful
out-of-band mechanism, often specific to one compositor implementation
(mutter, kwin and wlroots, respectively).

I believe gnome-remote-desktop always supported running under GNOME
in Wayland mode (with video capture via GNOME-specific mechanisms
that provide a Pipewire stream from the compositor), but if I remember
correctly it was originally a VNC server, then it gained RFB support and
was able to provide both protocols for a while, then VNC was removed. I
don't know the specific reasoning for that - presumably some problem
with either the VNC protocol or its specific implementation of VNC,
combined with wide enough availability of RFB clients that VNC was no
longer considered particularly interesting - but I think it's more likely
to have been orthogonal to X11 vs. Wayland.

If what you're thinking of is VNC servers that connect to an existing X11
session (like tigervnc-scraping-server or vino), then you're right to say
that they can't work under Wayland, but that's a fact about their
implementation of video capture and input event injection rather than a
fact about the VNC protocol specifically.

Or, if what you're thinking of is VNC servers that provide their own
independent X11 display (like Xvnc), rather than "doesn't work well with
Wayland" it would be more accurate to say "doesn't provide Wayland".

smcv
Fabio Fantoni
2025-02-08 16:20:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
Post by kindusmith
In Debian 13, all components of cinnamon have been upgraded to 6.4 or
above, but cinnamon-core and cinnamon-desktop-environment are still
lower versions of 6.2
Hi, I haven't made the new version of those metapackages yet because at the
moment it would only be a version bump of the cinnamon components, I should
first do some tests of clean installations to check if it is necessary to
modify other parts.
Cinnamon comes originally from Linux Mate and Clement Lefebrvre -
maybe follow what they package as their desktop as a basis for the
full desktop metapackage if you haven't before??
Hi, Mint created more fork or other software not packages for Debian,
not enough time for maintain also them and some unfortunately they don't
have enough people and time to maintain them well upstream so I don't
think it's good to add them.
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
For now I know that I should remove vino from the recommended ones but I
don't know exactly which remote access system would be best to replace it
with.
gnome-remote-desktop would be good, but unfortunately it has parts tied to
gnome, x2goserver which is now an alternative to vino seems to me to be
poorly supported (from a quick look, I could be wrong) and if I remember
correctly it is active by default at installation so it might not be a great
choice, regarding xrdp and others I had tried something many years ago, but
I am not up to date.
Ideally, yes, don't pull in masses of GNOME. It does seem that a lot of
people rely on Cinnamon at least partly because it's lighter weight and
needs fewer resources. if you can make cinnamon more self contained, that
might be a lot better. [Several of the Debian desktop metapackages need
cleaning up IMHO - don't feel bad that this is being asked of you.]
Sporadically I take a look and see if there are any improvements to the
metapackages, unfortunately it happens quite rarely, especially the
tests on multiple combinations (only core or complete with or without
recommended etc...) but unfortunately it can take a long time for
example the ubuntu ones of which some packages are different so much
that before 24.04 I didn't have time for good tests (which I did before
the lts versions of ubuntu) and unfortunately the default installation
from the cinnamon metapackages doesn't seem good to me (then there is
also the increase in the use of snaps which "worsens" some things or
even just makes them heavier, but that's another thing)

If there are any suggestions for improvement they are welcome.
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
Does anyone have any advice on this?
I'd suggest RDP in some form: Microsoft seem to be going this way
for suggested interaction with WSL and Red Hat have dropped VNC
because it doesn't work well with Wayland.
If people really want VNC, then TigerVNC is there in Debian for
all architectures.
Hope this helps,
All the very best, as ever,
I would also prefer rdp (instead vnc) and gnome-remote-desktop it seems
good but unfortunately in some parts it is strictly tied to gnome
components and there is currently no one working on a fork tied to
cinnamon components.

There is xrdp although not very good from a quick test and put only as a
further alternative.

There is rustdesk that seems interesting but is not in the repository
(there is only an RFP).

For now I replaced vino with x11vnc, not very good from a fast test but
better the vino.Then when something better is found (and preferably also
with wayland support) I will replace it.

Tigervnc if I remember correctly, when I tried it years ago it wasn't
bad, but I don't think it has a simple enough configuration for
beginners (something was changed or added?), so I haven't tried it
again, since for the metapackage I'm looking for something simple and
fast that's also good for beginners.

Anyway I didn't have time to do a thorough research and testing of all
the software, I just did a quick search and a quick test of some
software before doing cinnamon-desktop-environment 6.4.0, so if you have
more experience with remote access programs (present in the repository)
feel free to recommend them and I will consider them for further
improvements.
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
Andrew Cater
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